Foro de Boxeo de SoloBoxeo.com

Admito que la ciencia al servicio del deporte ha permitido que se rompan records mas facil (o menos dificilmente) que antes.

Pero no creo que el boxeo se haya aislado en el aspecto de aplicar la ciencia para un mucho mejor rendimiento, y más si se toma en cuenta que muchos de sus practicantes son de USA, y más sabiendo lo importante que es para ellos el ser los numero 1 en todo.

Teniendo en cuenta esto, ¿cómo es posible que el caso de Pacquiao no sea similar en algun o algunos estrellas gringos o incluso europeos donde están los meros meros cientificos? (para ser más preciso en Alemania donde también el boxeo es muy popular)

Pero incluso en esos paises el boxeo es visto como atrasado, dicho por los mismos fans Americanos, incluso alex ariza lo ha mencionado en entrevistas, llamandolo "old school sport" y en cuanto a su importancia los mismo gringos justifican que ya no dominen el peso pesado diciendo que sus mejores atletas juegan en la NFL Y La NBA (mas populares que el boxeo) y por eso ya no tienen figuras en el peso pesado.

Y llegando a ciuerta edad va para abajo, por más que se entrene lo mejor posible su cuerpo por ley natural ya no puede dar mas de cierto rendimiento

¿O acaso han visto treintañeros imponiendo récords o superando sus mismas marcas que impusieron cuando tenian menos de 30 años o mejorar sustancialmente en el curso de unos meses o inferior a un año?

JUan Manuel Marquez, Alistar overeem, anderson Silva.

POr cierto en el enlace que puso sobre los brincos de los halterofilos, menciona que gente con fuertas piernas como los ciclistas no logran estos brincos. que mejor ejemplo de que como entrenes hace la diferencia.

El caso de Marquez fue algo especial en esa ultima pelea, pero si vamos a ser analiticos en serio lo unico que demostro fue una gran estrategia, un mejor manejo del bending, y mucho mejor control de su cuerpo con unas libras mas, pero no se vio mas fuerte, ni mas raoido que lo que fué cuando era pluma o ligero, y me atrevo a decir que su pegada disminuyó en esa categoria.

si sera por eso que hizo solo tecnica y sparring y no contrato a un preparador fisico reconocido, no espera eso es exactamente lo que sucedio , Marquez invirtio mucho tiempo en ejercicios que segun sus propias palabras jamas habia hecho, superando a Pacquiao en peso en mcusculos a la hora del combate, y eso que antes nunca Marquez habia pesado mas que Pacquiao el dia de la pelea de hehco era al al reves pero ahora lo logro en arriba de peso superligero y ya con 38 años, segun tu misma logica Marquez deberia ser aun mas raro o sospecho que Pacquiao , ahora sobre como entreno Marquez este mensaje me encanto.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeEHMEZelW4
este es de heredia

muchisima razon en lo que dice:

"el ha cambiado por que hemos cambiado muchos aspectos de su preparación, el nunca había trabajado con pesas, el nunca habia trabajado con ejercicios con bola medicinal nunca había trabajado explosividad, no es lo mismo tirar una piedra como picapiedra o como un cavernicola, a hacer una preparacion CIENTIFICA, establecida dentro de las normas de la ciencia del deporte, como se lo dije a la prensa la biomecania ha cambiado, la ciencia ha cambiado ¿por que no cambiar con ella?

totalmente de acuerdo en todo lo que dijo.

y el mismo MArquez lo ha dicho en publico "si vas con doctores y entrenacs cientificamente puedes subir de peso sin problemas".

¿Cómo explicar que a Margarito lo que no pudieron hacerle welters autenticos y con poder noqueador como Cotto, Cintron, Mosley y anexas si lo hizo el filipino que fué dejarle la cara tan hinchada y castigada?

Porque Margarito estaba lentisimo y sin reflejos , pero por alguna razon la gente aun no quiere verlo , a pesar de que aun en sparring le den por todos lados, Mosley lo noqueo con menos golpes (si le hubiera pegado tanto como Pacquiao , hoy es estaria Margaro 3 metros bajo tierra) y desde entonces nunca se recupero, por que la gente aun espera algo de el (como que le ganara a cotto) eso si es lo inexplicable para mi.

Roberto Duran cuando dsiputó el mediano a Hagler contaba con 32 años, se estabilizo en ese peso, siguio manteniendo la pegada pero el daño que causabaya no era tan letal como en los ligeros o welter

Duran conquisto el mediano a los 38 años a esa edad no sabemos aun si pacquiao podria seguir.

O ustedes imaginan aún tratandose de Chavez padre que hubiera sido capaz digamos a los 31 años de enfrentar a un Julian Jackson y ademas de noquearlo dejarle la cara desfigurada igual que lo hizo con Camacho o Rosario?

"si yo hubiera entrenado como entrena Pacquioa aun hoy estaria yo peleando " corpority Julio Cesar Chavez, y comparar a Margarito con Jackson???

pero tampoco en tu caso que estas defendiendolo puedes afirmar tajantemente que su rendimiento es producto tan solo de un entrenamiento revolucionario nunca antes aplicado.

NUnca dije que es solo eso , por supuesto no es tan simple sino como te dije en otras ocasiones Roach ya tendrian un ejercito de Pacquiaos, no solo basta entrenar mejor puede haber otros factores desde anabolicos, hasta cualidades innatas bien pulidas, y mentalidad fuerte, por que los chavez siguen siendo unos tiesos aunque este con Roach y ariza y entrenen cientificamente?? la razon ya te la dije en otra discusion falta de cualidades.

Lo cual no quita que un entrenamiento correcto o mejor llevado te lleve a hasta donde no creias poder llegar.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php ... -training/


On HBO's infomercial series '24/7', much has been made of the work being put in by Oscar De La Hoya and his long-time strength and conditioning coach, Rob Garcia, as he prepares for his first fight at the welterweight limit in seven years. Not much however, has been focused on the task at hand for Manny Pacquiao, who after winning his first title at 112 pounds, boxes for the first time on Saturday night at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas as a full-fledged welterweight.

The responsibility of making sure Pacquiao keeps his speed and quickness while adding the requisite size is one Alex Ariza.

"The main thing here is that we didn't have to worry about moving up so much in weight," he says. "For the David Diaz fight we did focus in a little bit on strength. Our main focus was the speed. This fight here, for the first weeks we introduced Manny to a more ballistic, high-intensity, interval training system. And then the latter half of this camp, we focused on the speed."

Speed is the one clear advantage the 'Pac Man' has over De La Hoya, who has fought as a middleweight in the past. The challenge is to make sure that his blinding speed isn't held down by the extra poundage.

"It's a challenge for every conditioning coach out there. There's always that balance, trying to hold strength and have speed at the same time and the hope is that conditioning will piggy-back on those two things. Speed is such a key factor in this but, at the same time, we have to know that Manny has to be able to sting Oscar when he hits him," said Ariza.

He explains his general philosophy thusly, "High-intensity, interval training is what's out there right now. It's the most modern method of training. Long runs, those more antiquated techniques of conditioning, they just don't exist anymore with your top conditioners. We believe in taxing heart rates, recovering, and things like that which will improve and condition an athlete."

In the early morning a few weeks back, as he conducted the roadwork of one Amir Khan at a local park near Freddie Roach's Wild Card Boxing Club in Hollywood, you see that Khan isn't just running several miles straight at a steady pace. Instead, a constellation of cones are set up over 100 yards and Khan, as he reaches each landmark, steps up his pace till he goes into a full blown sprint the last 20 yards. He is given a certain time to get back to the original starting point, where the process is repeated. As Khan begins to stride out, Ariza harps on the young fighter to pump his arms at his sides and to lift his knees. Each set of sprints is meticulously timed.

Afterwards, Khan worked on some 'ladder' drills, which are used by many athletes to improve their quick twitch muscles. In the past, many football teams would lay spare tires side by side and have their players step through the tires as quickly as possible, pumping their knees as high as possible. Nowadays, instead of a garage full of Goodyears, trainers like Khan just carry rollaway materials that can be laid out to simulate the same process.

"It's all about plyometrics," Ariza explains of the drills that had Khan moving forward and laterally through the squares as if he were almost playing a game of hopscotch. But regardless of what they do, it's just as important to Ariza the pace at which they execute the workout.

"Conditioning right now is in its formative years still with boxing. So what we try to do is simulate a boxing round in everything we do when it comes to either the intensity of the plyometrics or the ballistic training or sprint training. It's always going to be interval, it's always going to be erratic heartbeats, high heart-rate with short recovery. And that's always going to be the focus.

"It's about taxing your heart rate, getting heart rate that's similar to what they experience in a boxing ring and then having that ability to recover and then do it again, recover and then taxing it again and recover. So it's gotta simulate what a boxing match is. Running a long distance, you can time your breathing, you can adjust your pace. When you're doing interval training, you can't do that."

And yes, Ariza did put Pacquiao through some resistance training - which is still considered taboo in many boxing circles.

"I do use weights, but in the sense that they're not for cosmetic reasons," says Ariza, who stays away from compound lifts such as the bench press and military press. He believes in high reps with movements that will benefit a boxer inside the ring. "They're more to develop a quicker, faster response, a faster twitch-muscle fiber. They're designed to target those things like that. So the idea behind using light weight is also for flexibility and to develop a faster reflex."

Pacquiao's work ethic, according to Ariza is, "Phenomenal. As a conditioning coach you are always trying to be a motivator, somebody who keeps athletes at a level of intensity. But with Manny, it's almost reverse. Motivating him isn't a problem. Getting him to work hard isn't a problem. It's keeping him from working too hard that's the problem."

But there is still the fear of the unknown, and Pacquiao and his long-time Filipino crew have balked at a few things and have been reluctant to make some changes. "Some of the stuff we cut out a little earlier than normal with Manny because Manny's just not used to it," said Roach. If it ain't broke, why fix it? That seems to be the philosophy at work here. But what helps his cause is that Ariza has the support of Roach, an old-school trainer, who is receptive to new ideas.

"I think there's room for it. Every sport in the world, we're getting bigger, stronger and technology is better," says the respected trainer. "I'm old-school, but if something makes sense to me, I'm going to go with it."

Roach harkens back to a time when he was fighting when he performed tried and true drills that, in retrospect, make no sense now."Like the medicine ball," he says with a laugh. "They used to pound the medicine ball into me so you got used to body shots and stuff like that."

So that didn't work?

"No."

Really?

"I think you get your body in shape to take punches by doing sit-ups and doing exercises. If I keep hitting you in the head, are you going to get used to it?"

Then there was the custom of doing your roadwork in heavy duty work boots to strengthen your legs.
"I used to run in boots," admits Roach. "I actually didn't believe in it back then and I still don't believe in it because it's just so bad for your legs, shin splits."

So why'd he do it, then?

"My dad made me. You did what you were told."

Perhaps all of these past missteps (whether in Red Wings or Nikes) has made Roach the ideal trainer to work under.

"Actually Freddie is an outside-the-box kind of trainer," Ariza states. "He's one of those guys who is more cutting edge, more modern. He thinks that conditioning and nutrition is an invaluable facet of a fighter’s training. His training is very intense, he's high-intensity, a lot of volume punching. So in order for his fighters to be able to maintain that kind of pace he keeps with the mitts, they have to incorporate this kind of conditioning."

The youthful looking Ariza, who looks much younger than a guy in his mid-30's, graduated from San Diego State in 1997 with a degree in Exercise Science.

Soon afterwards, his career as a strength and conditioning coach would begin.

"I worked out of a sports rehab center in Sacramento, an internship. And I started working with some of the football players, baseball players and that's how it started," he recalled. Not too long afterwards he would work with Marco Ruas, a UFC combatant, and then he was introduced to the world of boxing as he was hired by the late Diego Corrales, who was torturing himself to make weight during his run as a 130-pound titlist. He would also work with the likes of Angel Manfredy and Erik Morales.

Prior to this, Ariza was based in Las Vegas plying his trade. But as Roach and his former conditioning guru, Justin Fortune, had a falling out last year, an opening came about. Helping prepare Pacquiao for his June assignment versus David Diaz was basically his trial run.

"There was a stuntman who trains at the gym and said, 'Hey, they lost their conditioning guy and Freddie's one of the more modern kind. He's always talking about conditioning and things like that.' So he sent Freddie my resume and here I am."

POWER BANDS

I had been experiencing some problems with my left rotator cuff about a month ago from the wear and tear of my workouts. It got so bad at one time I couldn't lift up my arm above my shoulder without pain - which made even driving difficult. (And please, no Asian driver jokes here - that would be tasteless.)

Ariza put me through a series of exercises on the 'power bands' designed to loosen up and widen the range of motion in that area. It’s basically the same regimen that Pacquiao and many of Roach's fighters now perform as a warm-up prior to their boxing workouts.

Not only did my pain disappear within days, I've found it's a great way to get your blood flowing before you work out.

Ps en este caso yo estoy de acuerdo con lo expuesto por Hector y Edson..... la verdad que es completamente cierto que el boxeo (en todos lados/paises) es donde se tienen los metodos de entrenamiento mas "tradicionales" (por no llamar arcaicos) del deporte en general. Solo unos pocos equipos son los que han integrado planes de entrenamiento y dietas de ultima generacion a sus concentraciones (entre los ultimos de este grupo se encuentra el maestro JMM).... ya lo hemos tratado mucho esto tambien cuando criticamos al Team roach, que se mejora de sus peleadores???..... solamente el aspecto fisico y nada mas, no tecnica y tactica, no motivacion/mentalidad..... solo fisico.

Salu2.

Yo estoy deacuerdo en que se pueda mejorar fisicamente con un entrenamiento mas avanzo,por supuesto que si! pero eso no es suficiente para vencer a genetica señores,Pacquiao esta mejor ahora que con 25 o 28,se entenderia que estubiera mejor tecnicamente o tacticamente por la experiencia adquirida...pero fisicamente ?? mas potente ? mas rapido ? mas resistente ? No,por ahi no paso.
Nadie puede vencer al tiempo,ni a la genetica.

ya solo para finalizar no es que este venciendo a la genetica ni a su tiempo, simplemente entreno al maximo despues de un tiempo, un ejemplo claro es juan manuel marquez, y el ejemplo lo pongo solo en la pelea vs floy y la ultima con pacquiao, nadie puede negar que fisicamente estuvo mejor con el filipino con el princiupe hasta lucia sus lonjas, y tampoco nadie puede negar que era mas grande en esa pelea, la diferencia fue que entreno cientificamente.

saludos

Entiendo amigo edson,pero aun asi no es lo mismo,pacquiao estubo entrenando cientificamente muchos años,y justo al pasar su mejor epoca se pone mas fuerte mas rapido mas resistente mas..todo...pues no me cuadra,lo siento pero no me cuadra,para mi siempre sera un farsante,aparte de estar movido por los hilos de Arum,peleando contra sombras,o en peleas amañadas,esque a ver Singsurat lo noquea con un mero golpe al cuerpo y despues aguanta los de Margarito ? que no,que es todo demasiado turbio...

Compa Tyson,

Dime exactamente cual crees que es la mejor epoca de paquiao (año o años y rivales) donde supuestamente es superior fisicamente y veraz que no hay tal. A partir de la fecha que me digas lo analizamos (antes y despues mas o menos en el mismo perido de tiempo hacia adelante y atras).

Salu2.

panzon si esque te estoy diciendo que su mejor epoca es esta! ahi lo raro,a sus mas de 30 años es su mejor epoca fisica,cuando un hombre alcanza la madurez fisica sobre los 28años a partir de ahi es cuesta abajo,en mayor o menos medida,el sigue hacia arriba,ese es el caso.

Pues en "esta, su mejor epoca", no lucio nada bien contra JMM, y si domino claramente a peleadores que lo aventajaban fisicamente, por que no pudo hacerlo en "esta que es su mejor epoca" con el maestro???..... o cuando comenzo y termino su mejor epoca pues???

Salu2.

Panzon escribió:Pues en "esta, su mejor epoca", no lucio nada bien contra JMM, y si domino claramente a peleadores que lo aventajaban fisicamente, por que no pudo hacerlo en "esta que es su mejor epoca" con el maestro???..... o cuando comenzo y termino su mejor epoca pues???

Salu2.

porque en su mejor epoca enfrento a rivales deshodratados, en catchweigth y veteranos y ya que esta de moda hablar del futbol y del madrid veo que ganan juegos por 3 goles o mas de diferencia llegan al marco contrario en incontables ocasiones pero con el barza siempre pierden, se dopan contra los otros equipos? porque contra el barcelona no les veo hacer contra otros.

saludos